User talk:Gradivus/Archive 1
... Enjoy! --DarkLantern (talk) 05:36, November 5, 2012 (UTC) Thanks, Dark Lantern. I've seen this site before, usually finding it via Google. I'm also a frequent contributor to Wikipedia, under a different "handle." I haven't put "4" down in the lore and literature knowledge sections, because I don't think anyone (including myself) without a full-time job researching and/or editing Tolkien literature (or an eccentric millionaire with nothing else to do) could be justified in saying he has an "encyclopedic" knowledge of those subjects. Christopher Tolkien could probably qualify, but few others. I have, however, spent the past 20 years at a job that requires me to edit English language documents while paying very careful attention to the specificity of language and the demands of preciseness and style. I'm not perfect, but I'm not half bad at it. - Gradivus, 17:52, December 18, 2012 (UTC) Editing Battle Stats Lately, I've seen many instances of contributors changing both the composition and numbers of combatants and casualties in info boxes about battles. Most of these give no justification for their changes. From now on, if I see such changes with no support or justification, I will change them back to what they were before. If you want your edits to be kept, make sure to leave a citation or explain the exact source (including page numbers or URLs, so they can be easily located) from which you obtained the statistics: such information can be left in a footnote (created by using the code), in the "Edit Summary" box while editing, or on that page's "Talk" page. - Gradivus, 13:51, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Task I have a task for you if you'll accept it. I have been trying to get others to do it for years now but neither have come through. The pages List of Minor Battles in Middle-earth and War of the Ring Battles has been voted to be merged into one article known as Battles of the War of the Ring will include all the battles of the War of the Ring summarized but not detailed with a link to the already existing page if there is one. This means all the battles of the War of the Ring major or minor will be listed modestly summarized but NOT detailed like the main battle articles. If you could do this it would be most helpful. Do you accept and understand?--DarkLantern (talk) 03:33, December 20, 2012 (UTC) : If I need only merge them I could do it, if I didn't have to add new info that isn't already on the pages (I have only the text of LotR handy). But I probably couldn't start doing it until January at least. Although if it's only the battles listed on those two pages it shouldn't take long --Gradivus, 03:53, December 20, 2012 (UTC) ::Consider tackling the rewriting issues here as well: Forum:Project: Tolkien Gateway and Wikipedia copies removal Thank you for your contributions here.--DarkLantern (talk) 05:11, December 20, 2012 (UTC) ::: Rewriting entire articles is a considerably greater undertaking. Short of hiring someone to do the research it would take (i.e., for real money), my suggestion (and what I would be willing to do) would be to put a basic (one or two paragraph) "summary" of the topic, perhaps essentially lifting it (perhaps slightly edited) from the "Encyclopedia of Arda" (which actually encourages that sort of thing, as long as it includes a proper citation back to the source), deleting everything else, and then allowing people to subsequently add their own material to build the article in a typical Wikipedia-type manner. That would, of course make the pages drastically shorter (to start with), and I'm not sure you'd want me to do that. ::: If I did that, then for example this (or something like it) would be my entire entry for "Elves": Summary ::: In Tolkien mythology, the Elves were the first children of Eru, The One, called Ilúvatar by the Elves. ::: The first Elves awoke by Cuiviénen, the Water of Awakening in the far east of Middle-earth, long Ages before the Rising of the Sun or Moon. Unlike Men, the Elves were not subject to illness or physical aging.''Elves, The Encyclopedia of Arda ::: Some, known afterward as the Eldar (People of the Stars), were brought by the Valar from Middle-earth to Valinor, where they were taught by the Ainur. But after the Silmarils were stolen by Melkor, some of the Elves returned to Middle-earth, where they remained until the end of the Third Age. ::: History ::: References ::: ::: And then I'd delete ALL of the material that was lifted entire from the Tolkien Gateway and Wikipedia, and leave the article to build naturally. Is that what you'd want me to do? Actually, since I've just done the work, I'll go ahead and do it. Just reverse it if you don't like it. --Gradivus, 14:03, December 20, 2012 (UTC) ::: As it turned out, I didn't even have to lift anything from the Encyclopedia of Arda (not enough to need a citation, anyway). --Gradivus, 14:18, December 20, 2012 (UTC) ::::I agree with your total removal of the stuff copied from The Complete Guide to Middle-earth but as for the others what I really had in mind was for somebody to rewrite the article in their own words based upon what they know or have read. If that is too much for you in one go, well then I guess you could do a few every now-and-then or we'll just have wait for some else to become interested.--DarkLantern (talk) 16:35, December 20, 2012 (UTC) :::::Okay. Not something I'm knowledgeable enough to do in one swoop, but since I left the subject headings I think you'll see folks start to fill them in with their own knowledge in collaborative Wikia/Wikipedia style. Here's hoping, anyway. --Gradivus, 16:43, December 20, 2012 (UTC) On Current polices location You are right about your suggestion on the location of the LOTR:Current polices page. Could you help me find out the place in the System messages where I can make that change?--DarkLantern (talk) 01:18, December 22, 2012 (UTC) : I'm not a Moderator or Admin, and I don't know how to do that - or even how the "System messages" section works. How does one edit the basic page template to add a new selection under the green "On the Wiki" tab? I'd put "Wiki Policies" to the right of "Photos". Un-easily-reachable User-page Is there a reason that your signature is un-linked? That would be helpful. HiddenVale 21:51, December 27, 2012 (UTC) : I don't know why that is; I just do ~~~~ or press the signature button. No idea why no link is made, or how to fix it. --Gradivus, 22:13, December 27, 2012 (UTC) Discussion about edits Listen here laddo, why have you deleted all my awesome info on orc appearance and my slideshow? That took ages and lots of hard work! : No need to be snarky, and please sign your entries so I can see who you are. :First, thanks for asking me on this page. I certainly did not want destroy your hard work. Let me take a look and see what happened; what has been done can be undone. Was this on the "Orcs" page? Take a look at it now; most of what you added is red and looks very strange. See if you can fix it up: remember to always make edits using the "Source" tab; making edits in the "Visual" area can lead to all sorts of unsightly artifacts. - Gradivus, 18:48, December 28, 2012 (UTC) Sorry, yes i did put some information on the orcs page under appearance. First I put a Tolkien quote about how the orcs resembled 'Mongol types' and about how this was often read as racist by some scholars. I then did a long bit on how orcs were shown in the Peter Jackson films but i made sure it was labelled as in the films rather than the books. I also added a slideshow of different orcs that was over 20 images long. Did i put this is the wrong place? Why has it all been removed, was it not needed? I thought the appearance section was pretty brief. Did the film stuff have to go in a different section even though it was about appearance? Sorry and sorry for being 'sarky' i was just a bit annoyed it had all gone as it took me a while. (The Great Goblin (talk) 19:00, December 28, 2012 (UTC)) : I saw it and I liked it. I don't know what happened to remove it. Would you like me to repair the page, or would you like to do it? (I can restore it pretty quickly.) But yes, movie info should be in a "Portrayals in Adaptations" section -- which might not be set up for that page yet, but which should follow all the info from Tolkien's writings. - Gradivus, 19:30, December 28, 2012 (UTC) Thank you for that, yes can you re-add it please I'm not sure how to do it in the neatest way possible. Move anything if it's in the wrong place or delete it if you don't think it's needed, but can you explain why if you do delete anything so i know for future. Thank you and sorry (The Great Goblin (talk) 19:31, December 28, 2012 (UTC)) Thank you for restoring the info and slideshow, much appreciated, sorry for the hassle (The Great Goblin (talk) 20:05, December 28, 2012 (UTC)) : My pleasure. I'm always willing to work with people if they talk to me. I'm not trying to mess anyone up. - Gradivus, 21:16, December 28, 2012 (UTC) Rollback rights Because of your interest in ridding the wiki of vandalism, inaccuracy and for your general interest in the topics here, I am offering you rollback rights so you can revert them quicker. Interested?--DarkLantern (talk) 17:39, December 31, 2012 (UTC) : Sure, although I'm not sure what you mean by that because I can already "undo" them. Another thing I could use is the ability to ban unregistered vandals. ::Rollback rights means you can on one click of the Rollback option hyperlink you will see to the right of contribution log, instantly revert the wrongful edit by somebody. See help pages on Wikia if you still need help understanding. I'm afraid the blocking of vandals, deleting of pages, and protecting of pages is reserved for administrators only. Congratulations, Rollback rights is yours!--DarkLantern (talk) 18:14, December 31, 2012 (UTC) :::Your changing of the infobox parameters of Faramir Took I and Sauron didn't work. It is "Gender" not "Sex". Does the rollback I gave you even work?--DarkLantern (talk) 14:49, January 2, 2013 (UTC) ::::Yes, I noticed that. Sex is linguistically correct (the current politically correct version, gender','' refers more to psychological self-identity when speaking of persons), but I see the template works with ''gender only. And yes, I figured rollback out, after a couple of misfires. You can't leave a history explanation with it though, can you? :::::You keep using undo. Your still having problems with the Rollback aren't you? Why?--DarkLantern (talk) 01:07, January 4, 2013 (UTC) ::::::No, I'm not having problems with it. But as I mentioned above, I use "Undo" when I want to give the person who made the edit an explanation of why I deleted it, so he won't just make the change again. "Rollback" is a one-click operation, so there doesn't seem to be away to leave an explanation in History. Would you prefer I use "Rollback" and then give the explanation in the persons Talk page? - Gradivus, 03:57, January 4, 2013 (UTC) ::::::You can use what ever method you want. I just thought it was not working right.--DarkLantern (talk) 13:59, January 4, 2013 (UTC) Re: Bot I do, using AutoWikiBrowser to find the typos and fix them up. :-) - Wagnike2 (talk) 20:40, January 2, 2013 (UTC) Anar The info about Anar is from War in the North: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BP8S6EmoGY&list=SPA7616F403F1289E1 3:31. 01:20, January 4, 2013 (UTC) Signature and Templates Regarding Signatures Gradivus, to edit your signature, first you need the right codes. I've created a page at User:Gradivus/Help:Signature where you can see some basic codes. Once you have done that, click on your name in the top right corner and go to . Then paste your code into the text area where it says "custom signature". Make sure that you tick the box "I want to use wikitext in my signature". Then go to the bottom of the page and click save. Regarding Templates If you are referring to userboxes, then here is a starter code for you: If you are not referring to them, you can see other templates in the page Catgory:Templates. I will send you info on new tutorials. Thanks for asking me. Keelan717 ( Talk ) 10:49, January 6, 2013 (UTC) your templates Why Don't u give yourself en-2 instead of just english speaker TheDragonLord (talk) 22:51, January 7, 2013 (UTC) :Intermediate? Bah - I put down en-N (Native English speaker) - can't get better than that. But I threw in en-4 just for emphasis. My knowledge of English is better than the average college English teacher's, because I went to primary school in the early 1960's - back when they still called it grammar school (and for good reason). ;-) Gradivus, 23:07, January 7, 2013 (UTC) Non-Canon Gradivus, you only need to put NonCanon templates on made-up characters ''from LOTR games, not units. That would be a large waste of time. ....'or''' at least don't put it on pages about the game themselves. HiddenVale 04:43, January 10, 2013 (UTC) :Perhaps if you tell me to what you're referring, I'll better understand what you mean. What characters? What games? What units? What page(s)? - Gradivus, 04:57, January 10, 2013 (UTC) ::Dwarven Guardians and the Pelennor Fields level of Return of the King. ''It's of course already stated that they're from a game based off of LOTR, as opposed to someone e.g. in the films who are not in the book. HiddenVale 05:03, January 10, 2013 (UTC) :Pages about games are immediately obvious (as to their nature) from the title of the page. I will continue to put NonCanon templates on pages about made-up characters, units, situations, modules, etc. for consistency so that the non-canon nature of the page is immediately obvious, and the reader does not have to wade through the text to discover that it's not subject matter from Tolkien's writings. - Gradivus, 21:36, January 20, 2013 (UTC) Change of mind I've changed my mind about your colored notices at the top of those Kinslaying articles! Go ahead and '''put back' up that format you created! Of course, that means you will have to change it for all such disambiguation pages. Good luck!--DarkLantern (talk) 23:50, January 15, 2013 (UTC) : Oh, okay. When I can, as I come across them. I use the below code: :: text : - Gradivus, 23:53, January 15, 2013 (UTC) Message from TroyTroodon Thanks for editing my page Morgul Knights Note to "battle stat" editors: Lately, I've seen many instances of contributors changing both the composition and numbers of combatants and casualties in info boxes about battles. Most of these give no justification for their changes. From now on, if I see such changes with no support or justification, I will change them back to what they were before. If you want your edits to be kept, make sure to leave a citation or explain the exact source (including page numbers or URLs, so they can be easily located) from which you obtained the statistics: such information can be left in a footnote (created by using the code), in the "Edit Summary" box while editing, or on that page's "Talk" page. - Gradivus, 22:27, January 20, 2013 (UTC) On Balrogs have Wings You should consider removing all the theories of whether Balrogs have Wings and putting them into their own page, like you did with Theories about Tom Bombadil.--DarkLantern (talk) 20:34, January 21, 2013 (UTC) : Done: Did Balrogs Have Wings? - Gradivus, 21:05, January 21, 2013 (UTC) I don't understand your slogan there Quis curat te "non curare de minimis"? Nemo! quia ET rebus parvis ET rebus magnis scilicet necesse est nobis facere recte. Ergo quid apud te significat illa sententia quae scripsiras, id est "De minimis non curo"? - HiddenVale, 00:52, 23 October 2013‎ :De minimis non curo means "I don't worry about trifles." I try not to worry about changes or matters that are of comparatively little importance. - Gradivus, 05:24, October 23, 2013 (UTC) Volunteer for rewrites? You seem to have good grasp of the books of Tolkien Mythology and are good at writing. Would you help in rewriting the many articles that NEED to be listed in Forum:Project: Tolkien Gateway and Wikipedia copies removal?--DarkLantern (talk) 02:44, November 20, 2013 (UTC) : I have some time pressures that may stop me from doing much, but I'll see what I can do. Meanwhile, did you see my post on your talk page about possibly giving me Blocking rights to block anonymous (IP address only) vandals? Or is that only for administrators? - Gradivus, 04:57, November 20, 2013 (UTC) On Blocking and deleting questions Blocking and deleting are for administrators only.--DarkLantern (talk) 23:32, November 21, 2013 (UTC) Loot Giveaway I don't know anything about its purpose, yet! I was going to respond to User:Bchwood about it but was bit divided about whether to do so given he is a Staff member but if it continues to appear en masse every which way, I will complain. If not, I will probably delete it after the holidays if Bchwood does not.--DarkLantern (talk) 05:37, November 28, 2013 (UTC) The Hobbit IMAX Ticket Giveaway Congratulations! You are a winner in our "The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug" Tickets Giveaway! In order to get more information about receiving your prize, please e-mail grace@wikia-inc.com with your full name. We will use that e-mail to give you information so please make sure it is one you check frequently. If we do not hear from you by midnight tonight, we will have to select another winner, thank you! Grace (profile)•(talk) 17:26, December 4, 2013 (UTC) :Hello! Yes, I just received your e-mail (loved the picture), and it should be the whole movie and not just a preview. Grace (profile)•(talk) 21:36, December 4, 2013 (UTC) We passed your name and e-mail along to the people in charge of the list. You will get a confirmation from someone soon! Grace (profile)•(talk) 18:40, December 6, 2013 (UTC) Spoilers True that the film is not released until the 13th but in our country, it is released two days before the premiere. Thank you for reminding me of the Spoiler Alert but I'll take Winterz's advice and use the templates. Darkchylde Talk 01:49, December 12, 2013 (UTC) Titles If you are talking about the Flies and Spiders article, it cannot be helped since that article is named that way. It can only be renamed by an admin but I am aware of the rules regarding capitalizing titles. Darkchylde Talk 15:19, December 15, 2013 (UTC) Editing What page are you referring to? Yes, I am aware of the codes Source mode. I find editing in Source mode easier than in Visual. And may I ask why you removed your message? 04:28, December 20, 2013 (UTC) Do you have something against "fancy signature boxes"? Perhaps we can fix that. 13:30, December 20, 2013 (UTC) Concerns So I have a few concerns. First of all you changed an edit I posted back to a previous form several times and then told me to stop "edit warring". You need to get off your Mearas. If you would like to dispute a change someone has made, the talk page is the place to discuss it. Unless your Christopher Tolkien then I don't think your will automatically trumps another user's simply because you hold yourself in high regard. I have read over some histories and see that you have done this to other people as well. No need to be snarky and order people around. Second, the purpose of any wiki is to reveal information. That being said if the bit about how non-canon the proposed elf/dwarf union is, does not belong in the only section explaining the possible romance then there is no place for it on the wiki. In which case you are suggesting information, being the prime directive of the site, pertaining to the subject matter has no place on the site. The third point I would make is this, many social networking sites are filled with questioning the possibility of this romance. One may get curious and go to a more reliable source than a forum of movie fans. One might find themselves at this wiki. They would read what was "allowed by Gradivus" and be none the wiser. This in turn leads back to my last second point. Lastly I would like to say, while I don't feel I should have to justify the relevance of information to you, it is like pets. Different dogs can be bred together because they are all dogs, but not with cats and other pets simply because they are all pets. Children of Iluvatar can be mated but just because they are all races of people does not make all races of people compatible. Lord Glorfindel of the Firstborn 14:47, December 20, 2013 (UTC) *I've replied to you on your talk page. Basically, I agree with your opinions and analysis about this, but the rules of Wikia require that personal opinions, theories, and analysis belong on the "Talk" page of the article. - Gradivus, 17:53, December 20, 2013 (UTC) Re: Italicizing the names of extinct animals Greetings! It's not really a Wikipedia rule, nor does it only apply to extinct animals. It's not because the names are Latin either; in taxonomy, the convention is to italicize both the genus and species name (for instance, Homo sapiens). Other classifications, such as phyla, class, and family are not italicized. Don't ask me why this is done, but here's the source! --Stallord's Minion (talk) 22:42, December 22, 2013 (UTC) Megaloceros I didn't think of it as relevant until you mentioned that it is an idea from the makers. Megaloceros sounds too scientific for the Tolkien lore. It is a presumed type of elk that Thranduil used. It would be better if we have some sort of citation from the makers themselves. But it's fine if we keep it. About the stub, it was there in the first place; I only placed on top of the page for notice. 05:19, December 23, 2013 (UTC) : Lol, and yes, maybe Jackson was inspired in a skeleton. Moreoever, Thranduil's throne seems to be made of a Megaloceros skeleton as well. We'll leave the page at that and probably just remove the stub. 05:38, December 23, 2013 (UTC) : It disrupted the gallery due to its size. Don't worry; I'll fix it soon and have the skeleton image larger than the others. 06:36, December 23, 2013 (UTC) The Elk You're right. I agree with your point. Sorry about the misplaced modifier in the page though. The sentence came from the previous contributor and I didn't notice. I checked some websites and they use the common term Thranduil's elk. No more, no less. If we put Irish elk, I think it would sound a little out of place in the page, especially since this is Middle-earth. That's just my opinion. With all these discussions about his elk, it's starting to be my favorite character. LOL. —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 13:55, December 25, 2013 (UTC) :I pretty much agree with you. Elven elk seems much more appropriate, unless we can find the name of the mountains in northern Mirkwood, in which case "of mountains elk" would be more logical. - Gradivus, 14:59, December 25, 2013 (UTC) :Emyn Duir sounds legitimate but we are not sure if the elk did come from the mountains. Like you said in the Elk's talk page, it's non-canon. Elven elk sounds simpler to me. :) —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 15:36, December 25, 2013 (UTC) On References User:Winterz started that page but do not edit it directly because it is HIS page so leave all suggestions on his Talkpage. I intend to continue with encouraging a wiki DIFFERENT from the Tolkien Gateway.--DarkLantern (talk) 18:10, January 2, 2014 (UTC) :By discussing it on that page I of course meant on his Manual-of-style Talk page. - Gradivus, 18:26, January 2, 2014 (UTC) Thanks LOL. Thank you, Gradivus. You can pester me as long as you want :) —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 05:51, January 4, 2014 (UTC) On References format I'd like for you to present me with justifications to changes in the references format you have started doing, and give me examples please. This is how it is now: The History of Middle-earth: The Peoples of Middle-earth, "The Heirs of Elendil". Explain your additions. I do believe that we should get rid of the page numbers for all references due to there being different editions and combined editions.--DarkLantern (talk) 22:14, January 5, 2014 (UTC) *I agree with you: no page numbers! *I prefer to use the book and chapter conventions used by Tolkien himself in his tables of contents as much as possible. For example, since (according to the volumes I use which are supposed to be printed as close to the Tolkien's intent as possible) Tolkien used Roman numerals to represent chapter numbers, and spelled out the book numbers (example: Book Two, Chapter IV). As for italicizing, book titles (e.g., The Lord of the Rings; The History of Middle Earth) and sub-volume titles (e.g., The Two Towers; The Children of Hurin) – in short, any work that can stand alone – should be italicized, but the names of chapters should be within quote marks and not italicized. This is consistent with usual university standards for citation (see, e.g., http://web.calstatela.edu/library/guides/MLA7.pdf). In general, never italicize something and put it in quotations marks at the same time, unless (for example) the quotation marks are part of the title of the book (Why I Always Say "Let's Try It") or (conversely) when the italics are part of what is being quoted. *When several standalone books are normally published together within the same volume (for example, the Quenta Silmarillion and the Akallabêth are both within The Silmarillion, I'd list both the volume and the book, both italicized (e.g., The Silmarillion, Akallabêth). *Because of the nature of this Wikia, I don't think we need to put "J.R.R. Tolkien" at the beginning when citing a well-known book of his (and pretty much all of them are well known), but should take it as a given when the author's not mentioned. And also, for the reasons you gave, we should not put in edition numbers, page numbers, etc. *So, for example, for references: ::The Hobbit, Chapter I: "An Unexpected Party" ::The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter III: "Three is Company" ::The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, "Durin's Folk" ::The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B ::The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter I: "Of the Beginning of Days" ::The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age ::Unfinished Tales, Part One: The First Age, "Narn i Chîn Húrin (The Tale of the Children of Húrin)" ::The History of Middle-earth, Vol. 12, The Peoples of Middle-earth, VII: "The Heirs of Elendil: The Line of Dol Amroth" *For a quotation, for reasons of brevity, visibility, and ease of reading, I'd leave out the chapter numbers and use only the most immediate book title and chapter name. For example, ::: *Ending punctuation (periods, commas, etc.) go within the italics and immediately before reference citations (footnotes). :- Gradivus, 23:08, January 5, 2014 (UTC) ::I agree but it is a long format but accurate but there is ONE good reason for using it because it separates the US from the Tolkien Gateway which must be maintained. So yes I agree. I'd like you to online the format for The History of Middle-earth, The Children of Húrin, and Unfinished Tales, maybe a few others that we use a lot as well because it will likely go into the rules. It is also going to take a lot of work updating all pages using the old.--DarkLantern (talk) 23:47, January 5, 2014 (UTC) :::Okay, I'll do that. I completely agree in keeping separate from the Tolkien Gateway in as much as possible. I don't see anything wrong with doing something the standard way if that website is also using the standard way (e.g., they also don't italicize chapter titles, but that's standard and we shouldn't do something the wrong way just because they are doing it the right way), but that shouldn't be a problem in this case because they always put "J.R.R. Tolkien" at the beginning, and we're not, and they have other differences as well in their method of citation. - Gradivus, 23:54, January 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::I mean provide me with an example of how your suggested format would look for these titles: The History of Middle-earth, The Children of Húrin, and Unfinished Tales. :::*Well... Those articles don't have any cited references, and there are no quotations, so they wouldn't look any different at all. I'm not able to add citations because I don't know where the material on those articles comes from. The article on The History of Middle-earth for instance looks like it's just someone explaining what the different chapters of that book do. The article on The Children of Húrin has a synopsis that looks like it was lifted from something Christopher Tolkien wrote somewhere – but I don't know where. All three articles look more or less like book reports about those books. So I don't know what I could change, unless I bought the books, read them, and wrote my own articles about them. - Gradivus, 00:19, January 6, 2014 (UTC) :::*Articles with a lot of clearly marked references and/or quotations, I could fix right away. If I have to look up exactly where the references are from, I only have the texts to do that with for The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion. - Gradivus, 00:35, January 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I believe I saw you re-format The History of Middle-earth references on a few pages or tried to. Ok, well with that then I declare those not completely worked out yet so when you have something on those, then contact me. That's all for me tonight, thanks.--DarkLantern (talk) 00:42, January 6, 2014 (UTC) :::::::According to the history of The History of Middle-earth, I've never edited that page. If you look at the differences, there's been almost no change in the page since it was originally written by Robin Patterson in 2005. It's just a brief summary of what the book is about, I'm not sure what, if anything, needs to be done with it. Unless… Do you mean you want me to fix the citations '''''on other pages that reference the book The History of Middle-earth? - Gradivus, 01:29, January 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::I meant come up with a format for this: The History of Middle-earth: The Peoples of Middle-earth, "The Heirs of Elendil" if you can but consult me first, thanks.--DarkLantern (talk) 01:35, January 6, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::Oh, now I see what you mean. I suppose it would be: ::::::::*''The History of Middle-earth,'' Vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth, Chapter VII: "The Heirs of Elendil" ::::::::*''The History of Middle-earth,'' Vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth, Chapter VII: "The Heirs of Elendil" :::::::::But that's assuming Tolkien's son Christopher used the same chapter numbering convention. If he used Arabic numerals instead of Roman numerals, then it would be Chapter 7: instead of Chapter VII:. Unless you want to use Roman numerals (or Arabic numerals) for chapter numbering in this Wikia regardless of the author? - Gradivus, 01:52, January 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::I would prefer Roman numerals to be used. When you're done refining this, I will link it to the rules by means of a sub-page citing examples for users to follow. Make a list of how all the references will look. thanks.--DarkLantern (talk) 02:53, January 8, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::I've started working on a page that lists the Citations for References. Tell me if that's what you mean. - Gradivus, 04:43, January 8, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::::Yes, that is what I meant. Don't forget The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The History of Middle-earth examples as well. I know it is a lot of work but once it is done the User will be able to easily Cut and Paste the needed references without writing it all out by hand. If some of these are not known to you, I will help of course when I can. Thanks.--DarkLantern (talk) 05:00, January 8, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::::I think I'm done, for now. For further refinements I'd want to have copies of The History of Middle-earth, Unfinished Tales, and The Atlas of Middle-earth''in front of me. - Gradivus, 15:47, January 9, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Gradivus, the History of Middle-earth series (at least the ones after The Book of Lost Tales 2) clearly use Roman numerals for Volume numbers. I know because I have one and you can see the proof in the articles here. (ex: Sauron Defeated) :::::::::::::::Gradivus, it is not just the Cover Art. In my Hard-cover copy of ''The Peoples of Middle-earth it has the entire The History of Middle-earth Volumes listed on an inlet page in Roman numerals.--DarkLantern (talk) 02:29, January 10, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::Oh, and that coloured quotation block you left on Luthien was clever but far too inflated and big. I say stick with the standard quotation format.--DarkLantern (talk) 02:43, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::Yup. - Gradivus, 03:05, January 10, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::I am a little confused Gradivus. If your against listing The History of Middle-earth in Roman numerals in the references, then why on your Cites page do you have the entire The History of Middle-earth listed and numbered in Roman numerals anyway? :::::::::::::::::::Probably didn't get around to changing them back yet. O'll check it. Is that you, DarkLantern? - Gradivus, 13:52, January 10, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::::So you think that the First Edition copies The History of Middle-earth, should determine the whether the numerals should be Arabic or Roman? I think I could accept that but I'd still like to hear your stance on it. What do you think of my The Atlas of Middle-earth refs that I'm finished with?--DarkLantern (talk) 09:56, January 11, 2014 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::::::Your The Atlas of Middle-earth refs look good. i still have uncertainties about italicization. Please see my comments on your Talk page. - Gradivus, 15:21, January 11, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::::::I vote on your third possibility as the official references style. Did you read what I wrote on Talk:Citations for References? So far we have three votes for the third method of italicizing in citations it and none against, so I'm assuming that's the consensus and will proceed accordingly. Incidentally, use the colon (:) only when indicating indicate equivalency (i.e., when a subsection has only one name, or there is only one named part within a subsection); otherwise use a comma. - Gradivus, 22:56, January 12, 2014 (UTC) On Galleries The galleries will stay like that. We should not be removing things merely because they are an inconvenience, sorry.--DarkLantern (talk) 12:00, January 6, 2014 (UTC) ::I didn't say removing; I'm suggesting moving the References above the Gallery so they can be seen near the text areas being cited. - Gradivus, 13:44, January 6, 2014 (UTC) Forums I don't think we have a forum for this discussion. We can create one where everyone can tell their opinions about it. How's that sound? —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 05:15, January 12, 2014 (UTC) :I just meant discussions about policies in general. This particular discussion we can have on the Talk:Citations for References page. - Gradivus, 05:24, January 12, 2014 (UTC)